Claire Madden: Episode Description

On this episode of ‘The Inspiration Project’, Brendan Corr talks to Claire Madden about what led Claire into the field of Social Research particularly focusing on Gen Z’s, how faith plays a role in her life as a social researcher and is there still a generational gap in our society today.

Among other things Claire shares:

• What is Claire’s particular focus area?
• How do social demographers come up with fantastically obscure labels?
• What were the characteristics of Gen Zs that captured Claire’s interest?
• Is there still a generational gap in our society today?
• Do younger generations have less place for God in their shared lives?
• Are there Gen Zs and Millennials in church?
• Who is setting today’s cultural narrative?

Claire Madden: Episode Transcript

Sponsor Announcement
This podcast is sponsored by Australian Christian College, a network of schools committed to student wellbeing, character development and academic improvement.

Introduction
Welcome to The Inspiration Project, where well-known Christians share their stories to inspire young people in their faith and life. Here’s your host, Brendan Corr.

Brendan Corr
Good morning everybody, and welcome to another episode of The Inspiration Project. We’re delighted to be able to welcome Claire Madden as our special guest for this episode. Claire is a social researcher, a demographer, keynote speaker, author, and media commentator. She is in high demand by various outlets, including our major media outlets, TV host, well known for her authoring of the Hello Gen Z: Engaging the Generation of Post-Millennials. Claire is currently also studying to complete her doctorate in the area of demography, social research, or particularly Gen Z? Claire, what’s the particular focus of your studies?

Claire Madden
Yep. Well, particular focus is Gen Z and Gen Z at work and wanting to understand what motivates them in the workplace.

Brendan Corr
So we hear these terms are thrown around, Gen Z, millennials, boomers. How do social demographers come up with these fantastically obscure labels?

Claire Madden
Yeah, it is pretty funny, and it’s not an exact science. Different demographers, sociologists will have different years that they define a generation and also throw different labels at them as well. So, what I define Gen Z as is the generation that follows our Gen Y. So they are the ones born 1995 to 2009 are Gen Zs. We just look at 15-year cohorts now, because it used to be from when one generation had kids to the next, but that’s 30 something years these days.

Brendan Corr
It’s stretched out too far.

Claire Madden
It’s stretched out too far. There’s so much change. And, really, it’s just about trying to understand that they’re general influences, technology, social and world events, for example, we’re going through some pretty significant ones at the moment with the global pandemic, that shape then the way a generation grow up and see the world and interact with the world. And so that’s really what generational studies is about.

Brendan Corr
Is it that obvious, if you keep your eyes out and you’re looking at it, are those clear markers identifiable, or is it some arbitrary just going to cut the points here?

Claire Madden
In terms of the years, it is a little arbitrary. There can be some global events that really, in that period of group growing up, really stand out. So, for example, I’m what they call a Millennial or a Gen Y, they’re interchangeable terms.

Brendan Corr
All right.

Claire Madden
And if you were to interview people around my age, they’ll talk about the mobile phone coming out and the internet and starting to use Myspace and social media emerging. And that really had an impact on our generation, shifting from a paper-based world to an online world. And so we really did that transition in our high school and university years, where then we bridged that quite easily as a result.

Brendan Corr
Yeah. So the notion of the Millennial, Gen Y, that information age, what were the characteristics for your Gen Zs, that have captured your interest?

Claire Madden
Well, Gen Zs, they’re the ones that follow those Millennials. What’s really stood out is a few things. One is about how globally connected they are. So they’ve grown up with these technologies which have constantly and seamlessly connected them to their global peers around the world. So they’re watching the same YouTube videos, they’re sharing on the same social media platforms, looking at the same Insta-famous people. And then, as a result, they share global memes, they’ve got a language which is being created all the time, their humour. And all these become shared as a global community. So they’re definitely global. They’re very familiar with digital technologies. And often the first language they learn to speak is one of technology, where-

Brendan Corr
The text message shortcuts.

Claire Madden
That’s it. And you see a little kid go and pick up an iPhone and know their way around it, as a two or three-year-old. And so very intuitive with the technology.

Brendan Corr
So is that the generation or is that the technology? Is it the fact that they’ve been born into that space and there is a shared social conscience or a social experience? Or is it just clever engineering that somebody knows this is going to be natural?

Claire Madden
Yeah. Well, I think it’s a combination. I think the developers are very smart at creating intuitive technology now. But also compared to say, my dad’s generation, the baby boomers, who wants to know what’s the right button I need to push, for example, say my dad’s-

Brendan Corr
Before they have a go, tell me.

Claire Madden
Yeah, that’s right. Whereas even a younger person would probably just click a few things and not be afraid to “break the internet”. So I think there’s a different approach then, in how they use it.

Brendan Corr
Yeah. Interesting. Up until maybe, I think around the ’60s, ’70s, the notion of generations, or particularly of emerging generations didn’t have such prominence. And there was ‘the generation gap’. Is that still a feature of the world today, that there is this separation between these phases or is it less distinct?

Claire Madden
I think that there certainly are generation gaps, in that being that there’s a different understanding of what’s normal or how the world works or how we relate or even the language we use or how formal or informal we are. These certain things. There can be tension between, say when you enter the workforce and you’re a young person and you think work should be done a certain way and that you should be able to be in social connection with your friends all day because that’s what’s always been normal. And then the baby boomer boss might think, “No, that’s not appropriate and you need to work these hours at the desk.” And you think, “Well, that doesn’t make sense. I can work on my phone when I’m at home.” And so different expectations can create some clashes. At the same time, of course, there’s more that binds us together than separates us. And I think they’re important things to look at as well.

Brendan Corr
Yeah, that’s good.

Claire Madden
A lot of things we actually need as humans, regardless of what generation we’re in.

Brendan Corr
So just as a bit of a reflection, the notion that there, or what I think I hear you saying, is that there are subcultures that exist, that are with the most common experiences, an age group or a sense of the world that that particular subculture has. Given that we now live in a much more multiculturally diverse, multiculturally aware global society, has that increased the need to be sensitive to the generational changes?

Claire Madden
Well, I think we certainly have more subcultures now. And you can find anyone around the world now and connect with them who might have similar interests to you or see the world in a similar way. But I think that there’s far more complexity at the same time because everyone has an opinion. Everyone has a voice. Everyone thinks that that can be shared and everyone has a microphone. So I think in terms of trying to be sensitive to everything, it can actually feel a little bit tiring sometimes trying to make sure-

Brendan Corr
Navigate your way around.

Claire Madden
Yeah, navigate your way around a very complicated place. And I think again, what can help that is just realising, “Hey, we’re all actually just trying to work out life together.” No one has all the answers. And listening to one another being slow to speak and quick to listen.

Brendan Corr
That’s good. And I suppose since that’s one of the features of whatever generation is emerging now is the complexity of the world that they’re trying to occupy and the cacophony of voices, as you say, to speak, the microphones that they’ve got to pay attention to or give consideration to at least.

Claire Madden
Absolutely. I think it’s far more complex growing up as a young person now than it was even in my generation, one generation previous. As Millennials, I think the pressure to have a personal brand at a really young age on social media, and then the affirmation you get, or the likes that you’re getting or not getting, the comments you’re getting or not getting. And that all have an immediate impact on many young people’s lives. In the research I’ve done and the interviews, people would tell me, “If I don’t get a lot of likes quickly enough, I feel instantly flat.” And so it’s complex when you’re a young person trying to work out who you are in the world, your sense of identity, belonging, all these important things. Yet, now looking to a very unmediated, extremely fickle audience of social media followers, who don’t even necessarily know you, nor care about you, and we’re looking into them to see if we’re getting affirmation and likes and comments from them. And I think back in the day, we used to have more grounded ways of perhaps getting that from people who knew us, our youth leaders, our sports coaches, our teachers, our parents. And so I think it’s created a bit of a fractured sense of self for a lot of young people.

Brendan Corr
Yeah. I was going to ask you about that. Being somebody who focuses on the things that generations or groups of people share common characteristics, what has that done to the sense of the individual? Do we still have a sense of the individual or are we just a social construction?

Claire Madden
We absolutely do have a sense of an individual. And I think it’s important to realise that in this generational conversation, we can say Gen Z are tech-savvy or they’re this or that, but it doesn’t necessarily mean it fits perfectly to every person in that group. It just means there are overarching trends that are probably more evident in a group of people who grew up at about the same time.

Brendan Corr
So you’re dealing with averages rather than clear categories?

Claire Madden
Yeah, you’re dealing with trends, I’d say, more than if you’re a Gen Z, you must see the world this way. Of course, that’s not how it needs to be. And I think there are characteristics that as, whatever generation we’re in, we can think, “Okay, actually, I’m going to make sure that that’s not a marker for me because that’s a characteristic of my generation that I don’t actually want to replicate.”

Brendan Corr
Yeah. Interesting. So we’ve been exploring this notion of these generational demographic categories as being similar to cultures, subcultures. Does it then equate to the fact that a Gen Y person trying to talk to a boomer, is that cross-cultural communication?

Claire Madden
Yeah, it is. In the same way, as you say, it is like people from two different countries that have grown up and have different ways of communicating, you’ll find that with different generations, there are different expectations around how they communicate and even the words they use, the expectations they have, the worldview that we’ve been shaped with is different as a result of all the exposure we’ve had at a younger age, particularly for technology and the exposure for young people and what that’s done.

Brendan Corr
And is this common across different ethnic cultures? Do you see the same generational demographics or is it uniquely Western?

Claire Madden
It’s a really good question. And there are certain characteristics that are seeming to cut across many cultures now because they’re such a global generation. So they’re being influenced in many places by similar technology and access and the social media platforms and the like. But there are still cultural differences in how that is outworked. Even in America, the young people will talk more about a fear of financial security, because they felt the global financial crisis there differently to how Australian young people did. So there will be differences in different cultures. But what’s interesting with our Gen Zs is their global connectivity means that they’re the most globally, I guess, connected youth culture that we’ve seen to date with more shared with their peers around the world than previous generations have.

Brendan Corr
Almost genuinely global citizens. Citizens of the world, rather than of any particular ethnic or national group.

Claire Madden
Yeah. They would see themselves far more as global citizens. And I think for a lot of people, a lot of young people, seeing global travel as a rite of passage has been, that’s me growing up. When I finished school, I’m going to travel the world for a year or I’m going to do a big trip. And I think that we’ve been confronted by a lot of things with this global pandemic and borders shut and hang on a minute, I can’t even leave my state now. And that’s confronted what’s been seen as I’m a global citizen and I can travel around the world.

Brendan Corr
Yeah, and the generalising that experience, what used to be the grand tour for the elites of British culture, to head off to Europe. Now, as you say, much more broad and much more universal experience. Claire, I want to talk with you a bit about where do you think God fits into this notion of characteristics, sense of community, socialisation and self. But before I get to that point, you spoke about the fact that you’d broken things up to 15 years, it’s changed from when you had kids, a generation because it’s all stretching out. That seems a little contrary to the view that everything is speeding up, that we’re getting so fast and change happening so much more quickly. How does that work together when one thing is concentrating or compressing and the other is stretching it out? How do you balance that?

Claire Madden
Well, I think it’s those two things that work together. So because things are changing so quickly, sociologists are making these 15 years cohorts rather than 20 years, because so much has happened in that period of time.

Brendan Corr
So they’re both contracting.

Claire Madden
So they’re both, that’s right. So we’re saying shorter periods of time because now, what defines a 20-year-old now is so different than 30 years old? So I think that’s why they’re shorter.

Brendan Corr
The world really does change in a decade.

Claire Madden
Yeah, or even quicker it seems at the moment.

Brendan Corr
If we’re looking at how people are finding their sense of self and their sense of worth meaning, in a context of a social community and there’s the appearance at least that the place of God is losing recognition, it’s becoming less important, is that something that is true? Do younger generations have less place for God in their shared lives?

Claire Madden
When we look at the data from National Church Life Survey, which looks at the church in Australia, you see that there’s a decline in the number of younger people attending church than older generations in terms of how much they represent in the general population and then what they are in the church population, there’s a significant decline in younger generations.

Brendan Corr
So for both those populations, young people are a smaller proportion.

Claire Madden
Young people are a smaller proportion of the church population than they are of the national population. And so similarly, Barna has done some research and looked at young people’s engagement with spirituality and Christianity. And certainly, there’s been a significant decline through the generations from what our grandparents’ generation grew up, the values and the putting on your Sunday best and going to church that was just normal. Now it’s probably normal to put on your sports outfit and go play sport on a Sunday or go shopping. And so I think that there have been some significant shifts, which have changed the way the formation of values for young people, because what came through when people would have faith as part of their conversations and family, and it was just part of the culture where certain values were established. And I think one of the things about postmodernism where we’ve been able to, whatever your experience of reality is, is your truth. And that can be just as valid as that person’s, even if they’re very contradictory. But part of the problem, I think we’ve got is that it’s very confusing now. It’s like we’ve ripped out the rug of basic building blocks that we can build our sense of self on because we’re not being told that anything is true anymore. It’s all relative. And I think that can be extremely complicated to build your life on. And there’s some research that World Vision and Barna did that looked at where young people do have some kind of faith, they’re also more likely to have higher connectivity, boosted wellbeing, and various factors that actually help them through life because they’ve probably got those structures and values and foundations that can help them navigate. And I think that it’s very complex for young people now without even a firm clear value base.

Brendan Corr
So is part of the problem, and speaking with a bit of ignorance here Claire, that there used to be the transmission of known parameters, known truth, known values from generation to generation. With the disconnect or the emergence of independent generations with their own sense of autonomous truths defining that they’ve lost that sense of continuity of what has been known and accepted. And they’re sort of cut free, but also cut loose from things that can be solid.

Claire Madden
Yeah. I think that’s a good picture of what’s happened. So there’s so much freedom and choose your own adventure now, but there’s not a whole lot of accepted guidance or frameworks in how we navigate an increasingly complex life, an increasingly complex society. And I think that we all have philosophies that we live out of, whether we’re aware of them or not. And I think some of the philosophies that young people have grown up being told as normal are things like life is to be enjoyed, life is to be experienced, life is to be fun. And those things are good. Great, I love it when life’s fun. I love experiencing great things. I love enjoying life, but what happens when life’s not fun or when I’m actually faced with a really difficult thing going on in my family, or there’s sickness, that’s come or there’s some kind of difficulty. My philosophy of life’s meant to be fun and enjoyed and entertained isn’t going to help me get through that. And I think that’s where we’ve actually got to think as a generation, let’s think about what our virtues are and what we’re actually building our life on. Because without that, we’ve got a very superficial foundation to actually fall back on when life isn’t entertaining and fun.

Brendan Corr
You were speaking before about some research that suggests young people or any person that has an element of faith in their worldview, they understand what’s going on, has a richer experience of life.

Claire Madden
So the research from Barna and World Vision showed people of faith are more likely to show strong connectivity, which is linked to experiencing boosted wellbeing across several aspects of life. And when you think about it, the wellbeing piece is a huge thing for young people now. There’s increased anxiety, mental health challenges, depression. And I think some of that is going to stem from not knowing who we are or not feeling connected, not feeling like we belong, that we’re known, that sense of self and not knowing what to do when there is a challenge. And they’re often, it’s thrown around our young people aren’t resilient. Well, maybe we haven’t given them the tools to actually know how to build a resilient life because resilience is connected to strong, solid relationships. And it’s connected to a deeper sense of being able to hold onto something when the going gets tough. And if we’ve taken all that away from young people, because you just experience whatever you want and have fun. And if it’s not fun, move on. Well that, for me in my life, wouldn’t have got me through. I’ve needed something more than that. The coronavirus and COVID challenges of everything that we’ve all been faced with in various ways, I think has caused us to actually reflect on life and go, “Hang on a minute.”

Brendan Corr
This is it.

Claire Madden
“What do we do?” Life’s not actually easy right now, but what really matters in life? And I think we could benefit by going deeper, having some self-reflection for all our generations and helping these young people actually work out what they believe on a deeper level.

Brendan Corr
Yes, that’s good. Let me invite you for a bit of self-reflection. You mentioned that you would have gotten through with a superficial set of values. And I was interested to ask you the question as a social researcher, the finding. Is there a practical value to having faith, you’re a person of faith. Is that because of the fact it’s useful or is there something more real than just it helps me through the day?

Claire Madden
It’s definitely been more real for me than it’s just a set of things that helps me through the day. For me, I’ve grown up with faith as a normal part of my family life. And for me, my faith’s been a great foundation for building a life and helping me understand life and having God. Life’s too complex for me to work it out. And so it’s definitely more than a self-help guide. It changes who I am.

Brendan Corr
A useful set of tools.

Claire Madden
Yeah. God gives you all that and your faith gives you all that and helps you navigate life. But I think it goes far deeper than that. And it’s certainly having faith in God has formed who I am.

Brendan Corr
You mentioned that faith was part of your family. I’m assuming that was part of your parents’ experience in the home that you grew up in.

Claire Madden
Yeah.

Brendan Corr
When did it become your faith? How did you know it wasn’t just the transmission of a generational heritage?

Claire Madden
Yeah. Well, I remember as a little girl thinking, “I believe in God myself,” when I was quite young. But I think it’s definitely something that we are confronted with many times in our life, are we going to keep believing in God and are we going to keep walking with God or are we going to just try and work out life our own way?

Brendan Corr
So you had some of those moments where you asked the big questions?

Claire Madden
I think I’ve asked the big questions when life hasn’t turned out how you’d think it would and not so much questioning if God’s real. I think I’ve had an experience of God being very real throughout my whole life. But I think the big questions that you wrestle with God and think, “Well, God, you’re good, but why is all this pain here or this sickness or this challenge or this unanswered prayer or this desire in my heart that’s not happened?” And so they’re the things that I think you wrestle on a deeper level to make sense of. Yeah.

Brendan Corr
And faith has provided those answers always, or are there still things you are asking God about?

Claire Madden
There are always things you’re asking God about, but I think that you realise through your life that, “Okay, well, that season was hard, but I actually did get through it and I am okay. And I learned some things and I’m stronger on the other side of it. So I believe God’s going to help me get through this season even though it can seem utterly overwhelming at times or very confusing or unfair” or whatever it might be when you’re faced with the storm in life. Because none of us choose the valleys that we walk through. And we don’t choose when we are faced with them. They can happen in a flash. The only thing we can choose is how we walk through that. And I think that’s where walking with faith is transformative to who you are and your life, and can actually mean you come out the other side better than the valley crushing you or making you turn bitter or angry or whatever it might be.

Brendan Corr
So coming from that place of faith and having a sense of lived that as your own experience, does it change the way you’ve looked at the things that these demographic groups that you study have to deal with? Has it given you more compassion or more insight?

Claire Madden
Yeah, well, I would say having faith has probably given me a bias for believing in people and loving people.

Brendan Corr
That’s good.

Claire Madden
And I think that it’s very easy in society to write off groups of people who are different to us, to keep them at a distance or give them a label. But I think probably my faith has formed me in having actually a passion for young people in believing actually these young people have amazing gifts and talents, and they’ve been formed to be the next generation that lead our society. And so let’s actually listen to them, let’s believe in them, let’s help shape them rather than just thinking, “Oh, they’re annoying and they’ve got their earphones in and they’re listening to music all the time and they’re on social media all the time.” Well, let’s just scratch beneath the surface there. So it’s probably formed in me a bias to love people and to believe in people.

Brendan Corr
You mentioned earlier the things that unite us as people are stronger than the things that might be able to demarcate demographic groups.

Claire Madden
Yep.

Brendan Corr
Is that what I’m hearing you’re saying, that at the heart, people are people and we ask the same questions and we have to face the same issues and we look for the same points of connection, meaning-making, even though generations might answer those questions a little differently?

Claire Madden
Yeah. Totally. I think it’s fascinating when you start to really listen to what any generation wants. It’s often to be known, to belong, to be loved, to make a worthwhile contribution, to make a difference in the world. Everyone has a desire that “Hey, I want to make a positive impact on this world.” And I think that they’re things that have been imprinted on us as humans and that we do need each other and we do need all these things. And actually, we can shape this. We’ve got the ability to actually create a friendly family or a friendly workplace or a friendly school group or environment. And it’s not just life that happens to us, but we actually have the ability to shape this.

Brendan Corr
Yes. There’s the agency.

Claire Madden
Yeah, there’s agency. We have a choice and we have the ability to influence others.

Brendan Corr
When you rattle off those things that young people particularly have as aspirations or needs, it makes a bit of sense why faith can be such an important answer to those things. Isn’t it? Because it gives you a sense of meaning beyond yourself capacity to make a change, be known, loved, connected.

Claire Madden
Yeah.

Brendan Corr
Do you think the same things that you can see in society, these periods of identifiable transition, has the church shown those same sorts of things? Are there Gen Zs and millennials in church?

Claire Madden
Yeah, in some churches they’re seeing real growth with young people and other churches are seeing a real decline with young people not connecting. And I think that some, whether it be an organisation, a business or a church, we, I think, all need to reflect on how we position ourselves and the way we communicate and ask, “Okay, that might’ve been really good in the past and worked really well in the past, but is that actually the most effective way to communicate to people today?” And in a business sense, that’s customers, that’s clients. In a church sense, that’s our community, that’s our people. Does the unchanging truth of the gospel make sense in this changed community? And starting where people are at, not assuming that they have even a framework for believing that God’s real or things that an older generation might’ve grown up and had instilled in them at a young age. You can’t then assume that that’s going to make sense to a younger person who’s grown up in a very different society. So I think it’s about how some churches are much more probably aware of the language that they can communicate in, and language can mean multiple things.

Brendan Corr
So you’re talking about images and music styles, as much as words.

Claire Madden
Yeah, and community and the way that that’s expressed. And young people love being involved, not just being passive consumers. They love contributing and shaping things and feeling like they’re part of things. And not just sit down and listen to a message that’s, like you say, not visual or not engaging or storytelling. And that’s just a foreign world for them. So it won’t necessarily connect. So I think it’s whatever organisation or church or whatever we’re in, I think to connect in today’s society, we need to be brave enough to look at the way we’re communicating.

Brendan Corr
So you’re an advocate for finding the way that God wants to be relevant to every generation and God wants to reveal himself in the language of the age?

Claire Madden
Yeah. Well, Psalm 100 says that God’s faithfulness continues to every generation. And so I don’t think God’s scratching his head going, “Oh, no, this generation-”

Brendan Corr
“What do I do now?”

Claire Madden
Yeah, that’s right.

Brendan Corr
“How can I get through?”

Claire Madden
That’s right. And so I think it’s more our own culture and our own practises that can get in the way.

Brendan Corr
One last question, Claire, before we bring things to a close. We’ve canvassed this idea that there are common understandings across generations, and you spoke a little bit about how different age groups find meaning and a sense of self and believe a bigger story about life. In a sense, I know this is maybe an unanswerable question, but do you get a sense of who is setting that narrative? If it was once the church, it was once schools. Who now is setting the narrative that gives the frame that young people are trying to operate in?

Claire Madden
That’s a very good question. My first, I guess, thought on that would be probably the media as in not just mainstream media, but all the media we now create and consume and just how-

Brendan Corr
Facebook, Instagram.

Claire Madden
Yeah, Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube and then things and messages that are then pushed to the forefront of what we’re consuming on those things. And that shapes our narrative.

Brendan Corr
So we’ve almost chosen it ourself, is that right? By voting for what we like and for what we watch.

Claire Madden
Yeah. Which then feeds into a sense of a very individualistic society and very, “I can create it myself and do it myself.” And there are some good things about being able to create things ourselves, but then it can break down actually some maybe values that are actually going to work long-term or sense of community and things like that. So I think we all need to probably stop scrolling for a minute and actually do a little bit more self-reflecting.

Brendan Corr
Yeah, that’s good.

Claire Madden
I think we fill the big blocks of our life, as well as the small spaces with technology. When we’re waiting for a friend, we’re just scrolling, we’re just consuming all the time now.

Brendan Corr
Distraction.

Claire Madden
We’re distracted and we’re not processing emotion. We’re not stopping to think. We’re not stopping to really reflect on my character, on how I am processing a situation, on how I’m treating someone, on if I could have done that better. We literally just push it to the side, ignore it, and keep scrolling. And I think that whatever generation we’re in, we probably do quite well to maybe stop scrolling a little and a bit more self-reflection.

Brendan Corr
That’s a really powerful message to leave with people. We’ll just say whatever sense of agency we might have about shaping a better world, maybe the first place to start is to take an agency about our own world. Where we occupy and live and the story we’re telling ourselves, or let it be told to us, the story we’re listening to, about who we are, where we fit.

Claire Madden
Absolutely. If we want to change the world, which so many young people I talk to say they want to, it absolutely starts with how we live our own individual lives and what choices we make in our daily life. And if we want to stand out from the crowd, then maybe we need to live our daily life a little different to the crowd.

Brendan Corr
Yeah. That’s good. Which is a bit of the call of what the Christian faith is, right?

Claire Madden
Yeah. Not just go with the flow.

Brendan Corr
Each one, just make a stand. That’s good. Claire, it’s been fantastic to talk with you.

Claire Madden
Thanks so much.

Brendan Corr
A fascinating area that you are involved in. I’m delighted that you’re still advancing your own understanding of this space. All the very best with your studies.

Claire Madden
Thanks so much.

Brendan Corr
Probably another book in there.

Claire Madden
Maybe in time. Yeah.

Brendan Corr
God bless you, Claire.

Claire Madden
Thanks so much.